I agree to Idea Keep our hospitals public
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I disagree to Idea Keep our hospitals public

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Keep our hospitals public

Keep our hospitals non-profit public instead of for-profit private. We don't want the American system where people who are forced to sell their homes due to illness.

Don't allow consortiums to own, run or decide who to hire.

Don't change the system, improve the system.

Submitted by hilydia 10 months ago

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  1. The idea was posted
    10 months ago

Comments (40)

  1. I also believe that amalgamation of communities and small rural hospitals (under the Harris Govt)has not been good for the people who use those hospitals. Small rural hospitals can deliver services at much lower costs than large urban hospitals. See the report from the Society of Rural Physicians of Canada, April 2009. The society represents over 2700 of Canada's rural doctors across 5 regional areas of Canada. We should de-amalgamate those rural hospitals that can convince the government that they can deliver health care more effectively and efficiently.

    10 months ago
    5 Agreed
    1 Disagreed
  2. hilydia Idea Submitter

    Folks, I just want to let you know the result of a Plebiscite taken in Kingston, Ontario just this year. Over 9500 people voted to keep the hospital -non-profit.

    10 months ago
    5 Agreed
    1 Disagreed
    1. And how many voted the other way? How many participated?

      9 months ago
      0 Agreed
      1 Disagreed
  3. Yes, my daughter lives in Kingston and we were there the day before the vote. Thx for the reminder hilydia.

    10 months ago
    3 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
  4. Have hospitals ever been *for profit* in Canada? No. The Ontario Liberal Party is the least likely participant to find involved in the privatization of health care.

    10 months ago
    4 Agreed
    3 Disagreed
    1. The OLP may not have much to say about privatization. There already are large U.S. Hospital Corporations looking to buy Canadian/Ontario Health Care Corporations. In fact, the Wynne government is already on a path to allow such U.S. Health Corps to come in. Watch for it.

      10 months ago
      1 Agreed
      0 Disagreed
    2. hilydia Idea Submitter

      Well Shan, you better talk to Mr. John Gerretsen. the MP for Kingston. The Ontario Health Coalition spoke directly to him about this situation. Hopefully it is only John's views and NOT the views of the majority of Liberals. So pleace explain why in the world the hospital in Brampton is a FOR PROFIT HOSPITAL

      10 months ago
      0 Agreed
      0 Disagreed
  5. I fully support public health insurance. However we should look at other models, like in Europe, the UK and Quebec where private delivery of health care is common. Note that we already have this in Ontario, with laboratory and diagnostic imaging. This would be a great we to improve health care, lower wait times, and not spend any extra money.

    10 months ago
    5 Agreed
    4 Disagreed
    1. Thank you K-Man - this thread is confusing "private hospital operations" with "private health insurance". Private operations can be ONE tool that the gov't uses IN SOME AREAS to provide public healthcare, and it doesn't mean "turning American" and forcing people to pull out VISA cards.

      9 months ago
      1 Agreed
      1 Disagreed
  6. hilydia Idea Submitter

    K-Man, while i do agree that we should look at other models, we should also understand that the Health isn't a privae matter. The reason our country was admired was because we HAD (and still have to some degree) NON-PROFIT Hospitals. A Hospital should NEVER be an investment opportunity for a corporation or consortium of any kind. If they want 12% profit on their investment there are many many other places they can place their dollars. I do agree that budgets should definately be followed and accounted for.

    10 months ago
    7 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
  7. Universal health care is part of our Canadian heritage. Don't ever privatize it. And there should not be any hidden charges or fees.

    10 months ago
    6 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
  8. tw

    Don't worry, when the baby boomers hit 80 years of age, and there is no room for next generation of tax payers in the ER people will be begging for private health care. It will be the only way to see a doctor. Don't worry about the baby boomers seeing doctors in the private sector, they didn't save any money up for their retirement.

    10 months ago
    0 Agreed
    4 Disagreed
  9. I work in a Hospital Laboratory, and we were part of a P3 joint venture for over decade, when it was ended, it was announce that there was over a million per year savings the hospital was getting not paying the private partner, that was a million out of a 50 million budget, so the P3 cost over 2% per year extra. If the laboratories in hospitals were allowed to bill for laboratory work from private doctors, lower the OHIP rate by 25% of the OHIP rate it would save about $150-200 million pour about $500-650 million into hospitals, it would also allow smaller hospitals to run full laboratories 24/7 and the extra money helps fund the other services to keep rural E.R's open with no extra cost to tax payers. If the province were to run all labs, inside hospitals, it would allow integration of all lab results because of common platforms, and with co-location in hospitals gives diagnostic support to full time E.R. in smaller hospitals which would not be viable otherwise. It also allows e-health integration because labs are about 70-80% of a patient file, and common platforms allow doctors have common results between different labs, reducing testing. Privatization separates support systems so billing can be maximized to increase profits. Those profits come from the same pot of money provides services, so either profits to 1% or better service,. choose.

    10 months ago
    1 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
  10. hilydia Idea Submitter

    imhealy,would you be kind enough to put your info on another link on here called Stop Private Health Clinics. Your info should be in both places. I'm very happy to see your common. This is so important all citizens in Ontario should know and comment on it. Excellent

    10 months ago
    0 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
  11. This policy remains redundant to what the Ontario Liberal Party already supports. You sure it deserves to be in the top 50 policies? It's reaffirming that Liberals can always say they support universal health care I guess...

    10 months ago
    0 Agreed
    1 Disagreed
  12. Ontario Liberal govt private public partnerships re hospitals etc a disaster for public, costly gift from taxpayers to private interests. The stealth privatization of electricity delivery at base of $1 billion gas plant cancellation fiasco. See Cohn in Torstar today and Walkom earlier in week. Larry French

    10 months ago
    1 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
  13. hilydia Idea Submitter

    Right on Larry, It is the kind of crap that they are putting on the Health Care in Ontario. If you think the gas plant is costly, you better think again when it comes to what will happen if they do this to our Hospitals and Medical Clinics

    10 months ago
    1 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
  14. hilydia Idea Submitter

    Shane, I do think it deserves to be in the top 50 policies. Hopefully, by everyone's votes on here and our comments, the Liberals will change their thinking on the private hospitals and clinics they are pushing for.

    I find it much better to indicate to them directly, what the voters do and will respond to when it comes to their policy decisions.

    10 months ago
    1 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
    1. The Liberals have never promoted hospitals should be privatized. Please provide more proof than just your opinion.

      10 months ago
      0 Agreed
      1 Disagreed
  15. We are supposed to be Liberals. That means we support ideas that work, pragmatic ideas. We examine how things work (or if they do not) and then act on what works best. We do not make a presumption of what works best and try to force that model. That's what Tories and New Democrats do. We should not demand our hospitals be public, or private, we should demand they work in the best possible way.

    10 months ago
    0 Agreed
    1 Disagreed
    1. oh yeah aren't the liberals just wonderful here drink some more kool-aid

      10 months ago
      0 Agreed
      1 Disagreed
  16. hilydia Idea Submitter

    Yes Teddy, And as Liberals, we also need to be responsible fiscal, honerably, transparently, and democratically. Therefore, it is the reason that changes to correct a system doesn't mean to dissolve a system. I have always said, Let's correct issues that exist in the best system we have ever had and that the Americans would love to have. We don't need to have consortiums solve our problems just to get 12% on their investment and then have fully control of our medical system.

    10 months ago
    2 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
  17. I'm part of a small group that is trying to de-amalgamate our small rural hospital. Why? We're convinced that we can deliver better effective and efficient health care to our small rural community here in Prince Edward County. We built our hospital. We ran the hospital for the most part in the black. A few exceptions but quickly fixed by the people. Since amalgamation we've gone from 52 beds down to 10. We have no more specialties. No labs. We are a Band-Aid station at best. We have a geography problem. If you have a heart attack or stroke in PEC you end up in Belleville or Kingston. If that attack occurs at the far ends of the County, it can take more than an hour to get to Belleville. You might as well call a hearse. We're also an older population. Many of our seniors don't drive anymore. There is no public transportation to Belleville. A taxi ride can run you a $100 bucks one way. How does one do that on a fixed income. We want our hospital back. www.facebook.com?CountyPOOCH

    10 months ago
    2 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
  18. Ooops..... that's facebook.com/CountyPOOCH POOCH stands for Patron of our County Hospital Thx

    10 months ago
    2 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
  19. having worked for 23 years totally as a Hospital Support staff employee, I have seen this coming from way back...Jobs being eliminated, Positions cut, P-3's taking over and the Bonuses being pd to managers, to "divide and conquer", staff , and cause unrest among workers. P 3's have been sneaking in the back door and taking over contracts that rightfully belong to Maintenance, groundskeepers, dietary etc.. It's the Conservatives baby, but the Liberals are embracing these underhanded methods, and it seems The NDP lost Nova Scotia to the Liberals because they cut jobs in health care and cut back services. So you see, no one party is responsible! They are all on the P 3 bandwagon because they can get away with padding their own pockets at the expense of what used to be " middle class", but is rapidly deteriorating to the "average poor Canadian with few jobs and no benefits" Who's being taxed to extinction!!

    10 months ago
    1 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
  20. hilydia Idea Submitter

    Shane, Says the liberals have never promoted hospitals should be privatized. Please provide more proof than just your opinion

    Well Shane. If you need it contact Kingston's MP John Gerretsen for your proof. When the Ontario Health Coalition spoke directly to him. he certain supported the privatization of hospitals. Also Shane, If the Liberals don't support Private Hospitals, tell me how it happened that Brampton, and several other communities already have them. If you need information check out the website keepourhospitalpublic.org. where John's Picture is holding the sign up for support of private hospital in Kingston. Hopefully he is the only one that supports this. I Hope all the other Liberals will say NO to both private hospitals and private health clinics. Hope that will provide your proof.

    10 months ago
    1 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
  21. I believe we need to change the 100% publicly funded approach to say 25% private and 75% public. Doctors would be required to work 50% of their practice in the public system in order to maintain a license. Works in Mexico.

    10 months ago
    1 Agreed
    1 Disagreed
  22. http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-6/page-1.html#docCont

    "In order that a province may qualify for a full cash contribution referred to in section 5 for a fiscal year, the health care insurance plan of the province must, throughout the fiscal year, satisfy the criteria described in sections 8 to 12 respecting the following matters:

    (a) public administration;

    (b) comprehensiveness;

    (c) universality;

    (d) portability; and

    (e) accessibility."

    I'm satisfied that your claim does not diminish my quality of care. It just cares about who owns the bricks.

    10 months ago
    1 Agreed
    1 Disagreed
  23. hilydia Idea Submitter

    Excellent Shane, That is the good news and It is very much welcomed. Now. Pray tell, Where does the COST ANALYSIS come into play between Private and Public Hospitals. I firmly believe that all the bullets you have presented will be administrated effectively. Just as affectively as it would be in the Public Hospital system and therefore there isn't any need to go Privately.

    10 months ago
    0 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
  24. Stop making the government corporations act as privately run corporations. Government is not very good in doing business. CEOs in hospitals and govt entities are just like these appointed senators. They have salaries that are incredible and what is the difference between unit workers to these high powered position.

    Without small workers CEO cannot make those places efficient. The gap should not be that huge because it only emphasize how society gap is also humugous. If a unit janitor earns 35 Thousand annually and CEO earns 500T-700 Thousand gross what message are sending? Janitors are 10 times less of a person? I do not claim to even the salaries but this huge cash intake is making the gap economically drastic and it takes a lot from our hospital budgets maybe we can institute another model of hospital organizational hierarchy.

    10 months ago
    0 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
  25. hilydia Idea Submitter

    Thanks Donald, 100% correct. What the FAT jerks seem to forget is that if it wasn't the Janitors who keep the enterprises clean enough for people to want to do business with a corporation, there wouldn't BE a corporation. Who wants to do business with slums. Isn't the problem in hospitals of diseases infecting patients due to cleanishness? Isn't that the reason everyone is asked to wash their hands going into the hospital. Yes indeed Everyone is important from the Janitoral staff right up to the CEOs. All extremely important. Not one of them more important than the other.

    10 months ago
    0 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
  26. All your comments are interesting @Hilydia, but:

    "Keep our hospitals non-profit public instead of for-profit private. We don't want the American system where people who are forced to sell their homes due to illness.

    Don't allow consortiums to own, run or decide who to hire.

    Don't change the system, improve the system."

    is not much of a policy. It's a few platitudes about how you feel about something completely unfleshed out. This policy is rising up in votes without many voters reading all of these comments. Even after all these comments, I have no clear idea of what you want the government to do, what mechanisms you propose using, how you want to pay for it, its significant advantages, what case examples you're using or any relevant articles/studies bolstering your claims.

    If you submitted something with all of those things, I'd be interested.

    10 months ago
    0 Agreed
    2 Disagreed
  27. hilydia Idea Submitter

    Shane, I see that you are at least willing to read to understand more about the issues and what is wanted to the majority of voters on here. the website that can explain much more about what is truly needed is keepourhospitalspublic.org. If you really want to be open-minded about the issue there is alot of information there for you to learn more.

    It does upset me that you believe the voters on here are not realizing what they are TRULY voting for. Kingston had a vote and over 9000 voters knew that they didn't want FOR PROFIT HOSPITAL. These voters are not stupid. They will punish any politican that pushes for the FOR PROFIT system. Your comment below does insult the majority of people voting on here.

    "Don't allow consortiums to own, run or decide who to hire. Don't change the system, improve the system." is not much of a policy. It's a few platitudes about how you feel about something completely unfleshed out. This policy is rising up in votes without many voters reading all of these comments"

    THIS POLICY IS RISING UP IN VOTES WITHOUT MANY VOTERS READING ALL OF THESE COMMENTS

    10 months ago
    0 Agreed
    1 Disagreed
    1. Keepourhospitalspublic.org does *not* have a "lot of information there for you to learn more." It's written in the same opaque language of those who are already convinced.

      Firstly, it misspells the Premier's name. Showing disrespect for someone you'd like to convince is mistake 1. The fact sheet sells one study's mathematical guesstimation in order to calculate all its further evidence. There are few laid out goals, no explanation of this consortium is, no calculation of how much the hospital is making and why a P3 hurts patients.

      Talking points: "It's just a dangerous model." and "It was a fun campaign to do this plebiscite." The language around "keep our system public" make it sound as if it's a continuity campaign, opposing some prospective change. It sounds like it has very little stakes other than it will rile up people who believe Canada is subversively Americanizing itself, which is a fallacy.

      The Auditor General's Report page is blank. I have no idea which report they're referring to.

      Only a few of the NDP caucus have been convinced to dip their feet into discussing this issue. If even their party is skeptical to bring it up at Queen's Park as an issue worth answering on... That's problematic.

      I don't want to go know "How can I help?" before I understand why I should care. This website is made shoddily and I really have to say that this policy is not yet a policy until it tells me:

      1. Who? is this aimed at?

      2. What? is this issue and how can it be explained to anyone wishing to start from step 1 on this?

      3. Where? is this happening and how is different from elsewhere in Ontario?

      4. When? did this start? What was the rationale then?

      5. Why? will this hurt patients or compromise public health care?

      This case needs to be bolstered by experts, journalists and other people talking about it. The few converts preaching are only convincing the choir. I remain skeptical about the motives of this movement and validity of its claims.

      10 months ago
      0 Agreed
      0 Disagreed
  28. hilydia Idea Submitter

    Shane this might help you understand more. Contact information

    Ontario Health Coalition

    15 Gervais Drive, Suite 305

    Toronto, ON M3C 1Y8

    www.ontariohealthcoalition.ca

    416-441-2502

    10 months ago
    0 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
  29. hilydia Idea Submitter

    Thank you Shane for actually going to the website. The fact that you remain skepitical about the motives of this movement and validity of its claims is actually a very good sign. You keep mention the NDP. Just for the record here Shane, even though the VOTERS who do support the NDP have voted, the majority of voters were actually LIBERALS/PROGRESSIVE voters. This issue has and never has been politically based. This coalition is made up of the very people who work in the medical profession. If you want further information google FOR PROFIT HOSITALS IN THE UNITED KINDGOM. Learn what has almost crippled the public hospital system there. If you think the system in the UNITED STATES isn't want you want as a patient, you will HATE the FOR PROFIT system that exists in the United Kindom. If you remain skeptical, then keep supporting your way of ensuring that consortiums that will get 12% profit on their investment and then unload everything else upon the public. Just think of how the 407 highway works and treats the public and you will instantly know what PRIVATE versus PUBLIC (401) HIGHWAY WORKS. The same will happen to our medical system if your way sweeps right across Ontario.

    10 months ago
    0 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
  30. I personally think that the Liberals need to seriously look at how they have been spending Health Care dollars. For the last several years there has been the E-Health fiasco, costing multi millions of dollars with zero outcome. There has been the ORNGE scandal, where our health care dollars purchased airplanes, helicoptors, and super equipment to be owed by Dr. Mazza, then rented back for use by ORNGE for medivac use......all paid for by our Health care dollars. Never mind the MBAs of the Executives in ORNGE (done in Belgium), the excessively high wages of the paramedics (>$135,000 in most cases) and the pilots (30% greater than the pilots from other air lines on contract with ORNGE), and the fact that many medivac trips are for patient convenience, are non-urgent leaving pilots, paramedics and patient waiting for hours on an airport tarmak waiting for land transport to the hospital, where, after being seen, the patient is discharged within several hours. The LHINs of the various regions around the province....OK they make recommendations, But is it really necessary to have a whole group of well paid persons doing what nurses and doctors have always done as part of their professional commitment? There are many many things that are decided and done, yet much of it seems to be a total waste of our Health care dollar. It is time to look at the Health Care dollar as a sacred trust to be used for necessary and needed Health care. Our province is now one of the worst for health care in all of Canada. Privatization is not the answer. It will only allow the greedy to become wealthier upon the backs of the vulnerable. Privatization allows an agency to function as it's own accord, not maintaining any form of standard for care, types of personnel for certain types of jobs, etc etc etc. This is not what our forefathers fought so hard for. It is time for our governments to take a good long hard look at how they spend health care dollars in relation to the concept of "Decent Health Care.

    10 months ago
    1 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
  31. Hospitals shall never ever be run for profit. Making money on the back of someone who is ill is immoral. The Health Care system must continue to be free for every Canadian.

    10 months ago
    2 Agreed
    0 Disagreed
  32. hilydia Idea Submitter

    Sierraechohotel is 100% right in asking for the full count that took place in kingston

    According to the local newspaper it was reported:

    The results were released this morning by the Vote Monitors: Barb Linds, James Leake and Susan Shaw. The results were: total votes, 9,885; 9,492 voted in favour of the proposition that “the new Kingston hospital should be publicly funded with 100% non-profit ownership, operation, administration and maintenance; 250 voted against and there were 143 spoilt ballots

    9 months ago
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    0 Disagreed
  33. hilydia Idea Submitter

    Shane MacKenzie, Thank you. When you stated in your comments: The Ontario Liberal Party is the least likely participant to find involved in the privatization of health care

    You have just indicated that the Liberal Party would be the least likely to particpate. Again check your Party with Premier Wynn. The Kingston Hospital is fully into the procedure of doing just that. Despite the results above.

    Wolfgangbraun, You are more than welcome.

    This issue isn't just a Kingston issue. This is what the present Ontario government is trying to establish in other cities in Ontario.

    My fear has always been that our system is changing to the unwanted American Health Care system just as the United States is in the process of moving to our orginal Health System.

    9 months ago
    1 Agreed
    0 Disagreed